Christian Nationalism vs Clown World | Interesting Times with Ross Douthat

Doug Wilson, Evangelical pastor and self-proclaimed Christian nationalist, has been preaching for decades that America needs to reclaim its Puritan past. But in 2025, he believes he’s “significantly” more influential. Does that mean America is closer to Wilson’s goal of theocracy? In this episode, nothing is off limits — even Ross’s own salvation. 01:37 - Doug Wilson's vision for a Christian nation 09:20 - Wilson’s ideal theocratic republic 20:21 - Theocracy and religious diversity 38:35 - Christendom and slavery 48:19 - How far does Wilson’s influence go in a “clown world”? 1:02:07 - Calvinism activism and quietism Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/09/op... Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Subscribe to the podcast @InterestingTimesNYT for more episodes like this.