Gavin Ortlund Is Wrong About the Intercession of the Saints

Gavin Ortlund claims there are no clear examples of Christians praying to the saints during the first 200 years of Christianity—and that the Bible provides no warrant for the practice. In this episode, Stephen Boyce, Pat May, and William Albrecht respond by examining the biblical and historical evidence. We discuss Revelation 5 and 8, 2 Maccabees 15, Origen, Cyprian, Hippolytus, the Acts of Paul, Victorinus, and the early Christian inscriptions asking Peter and Paul to intercede. Does the evidence really begin 200 years after the New Testament, or is Gavin overlooking sources that directly challenge his argument? Join us as we work through the texts in their historical context. #GavinOrtlund #IntercessionOfTheSaints #ChurchFathers #catholicapologetics 0:00 Introduction 2:33 Four Questions Gavin Conflates 5:04 Has Gavin Already Conceded Heavenly Intercession? 10:29 What Changes Five Minutes After Death? 13:44 What “Praying to the Saints” Actually Means 17:57 Is Communication with Heaven Absent from Scripture? 23:44 Matthew 27:49—Did They Expect Elijah to Answer? 27:23 2 Maccabees 15—Onias and Jeremiah Intercede 34:57 Tobit 12—Raphael Presents Human Prayers 43:20 Why the “First 200 Years” Standard Is Misleading 47:15 How Can the Saints Hear Our Prayers? 51:40 Purgatory, Hell, Relics and Intercession 55:22 Zechariah 1—An Angel Pleads for Jerusalem 59:22 Luke 20—God of the Living 1:02:51 Revelation 5–8—Heavenly Saints and Earthly Prayers 1:13:32 Hebrews 12—One Church in Heaven and on Earth 1:19:17 P.Oxy. 1786 and Early Cosmic Liturgy 1:22:28 Gavin’s “No Clear Examples for 200 Years” Claim 1:28:00 Acts of Paul—Paul Converses with the Fathers 1:35:15 Hippolytus—“Remember Me, I Entreat You” 1:42:46 Clement of Alexandria—The Choir of Saints 1:44:15 Ignatius—Continued Petitions After Death 1:49:57 Did Origen Teach Prayer to God Alone? 1:54:36 Origen on the Friends of the Bridegroom 2:01:17 Origen’s On Prayer—Saints Already at Rest 2:09:34 Origen—They Intercede “Even When Not Asked” 2:15:13 Cyprian—Prayer Continues After Death 2:22:27 Acts of Paul and Thecla—Falconilla’s Request 2:26:15 Epistula Apostolorum—The Righteous Intercede 2:27:49 Apocalypse of Peter—The Elect Ask Christ 2:33:26 Apocalypse of Zephaniah—The Patriarchs Intercede 2:36:59 Testament of Levi—Calling Upon the Interceding Angel 2:40:54 Testament of Dan—The Angel Who Intercedes 2:42:08 1 Enoch—Angelic and Heavenly Intercession 2:47:52 1 Enoch 106—Methuselah Calls to Enoch 2:54:43 3 Baruch—Michael Receives Human Prayers 2:55:31 The Frankfurt Amulet and San Sebastiano Graffiti 2:58:29 Origen—Martyrs Minister at the Heavenly Altar 3:00:33 Origen on Revelation’s Martyrs as Priests 3:02:15 Victorinus—Patriarchs, Apostles and Heavenly Prayer 3:04:31 The Passion of Perpetua—Martyrs Petitioned for Help 3:07:47 Rachel’s Tomb and Her Continuing Intercession 3:09:51 Final Questions and Conclusions